2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Well, D&D is a venerable game system, but basically none of it is based on fact or real cultural legends and myth. Its a little like taking World of Warcraft as the basis for information about World War Two.

2007-10-28 [windowframe]: You mean people didn't ride gryphons to bomb behind enemy lines in WWII?? Drat. I've been deceived. ._.

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: well, heres the thing as I see it. This is suppose to be, from what I have been reading, about "real" dragons, mages, elves, fairies, etc, etc, etc. I wonder how many folk realize just how little of what is out there in fantasy art has any relation to the "real" thing. Vampires for instance. Not real at all except for the vampire bat. Not even legendary. Probably the nearest thing to a vampire are the fox women of oriental legend. And they do not drink blood. The whole concept of immortality through blood is one, a pure invention by a writer, two, expounded and developed upon by other writers, and three... based on a christian theme, which is in reality, a very small percentage of the actual religions out there.

2007-10-28 [windowframe]: Which means that 'vampire' falls under the category of 'modern myth'. But I don't see how that makes it any less a myth, or gives it a lower status than long established myths.

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Because its not myth. Its a fantasy story by a fantasy author, not from the fabric, history and tales of a culture, which is what a legend or myth is. If you accept that as the basis of myth, then Yoda is a mythic figure. Its not about status, its about traditions. And legends and myths have established traditions for generation upon generations. Accept vampires if you wish, but in doing so what you are really doing is saying that a few authors fantasy, which they themselves say is fantasy, are the truth of your past. Legends and Myth are not fantasy, they are taken, and told, and taught, as the reality of a culture. Tales to keep them alive, or to teach moral lessons, or to learn important truths about surviving in a given society. It just really depends on what these references are to be. Are they about the truth of legendary and mythic creatures, or are they just references to fantasy literature and art? Or some where in between? There is a huge amount of material out there about vampires, and its all "fanfic" or direct fantasy stories by fantasy authors who make it quite clear they are authors, not legendary historians. Shrug.

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Actually I only spoke up using vampires as an easy example. The exact same thing applies to modern books on fairie, or dragons, or elves, or what have you. What I really was after was to start a discussion on just what this reference was going to be about. :)

2007-10-28 [nehirwen]: I wasn't thinking at all about D&D when I made the ECM Nymph... I just thought they're the spirits of nature etc, according to the Greek mythology. I would love to see [Skydancer] to dig up some information out of his books and references to share with us :) I will go to the library as well ^^ *loves to see there are more people around interested in Nymphs*

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: I will do that, I was just researching oriental foxes and norse elves. Which actually are pretty much what people think of as fairies today. Little people under the hills, live in underground halls, under trees, etc, the elves that is.

2007-10-28 [nehirwen]: I appreciate that ^^ I'm really curious in what you will come up with :)

2007-10-28 [windowframe]: So to be a myth, it has to have been aroud for X amount of time? And Who decides who old it has to be before it suddenly counts as a myth? The reason most myths didn't start as stories written down was because when they were made, there was no writing. So they became part of an oral tradition instead. If there had been writing, they would have been part of a literary tradition - as happened with older myths as soon as writing was developed. The vampiric myth has evolved in much the same way as ancient myths. Stories get retold, retold and retold, and as that happens, they evolve. That's why there are so many versions of some of the ancient myths. Just because a story doesn't come from the period that one traditionally expects of myth, doesn't mean it isn't myth. Myth is not history, it is fantasy. And you seem to be suggesting that all people like Bram Stoker wanted to do was tell a pretty fantasy story, as if there's no moral aspect to his work.

Every myth has a beginning. There was a point for every myth where it wasn't part of a culture, or a history, it became so because people repeated it. If people talked of Yoda in the same way they talked of vampires, they yes, actually, I would happily accept Yoda as a mythic figure. As is, they don't. But they do talk about vampires in the same way they talk about Gorgons and chimeras. It has become myth, just like the plight of Achilles became myth.

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Like I have said, if you choose to incorporate the vampire concept into your life that up to you. But I do not believe you have the right to simply rewrite the flow of human history for everyone else. Do you? I know I don't. Historical truth is the basis for all humankind. Not a fantasy book. Not for me.

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Tell you what, thinking about it. Lets examine another group that revolve around a fanasy book, perhaps one that is not such a trigger for you. How about GOR? There are quite a few people out there that have adopted it into their lives, live a "gorean" lifestyle and do a great deal on the web, in rp and have written up quite lot of material to support their concept. Is that a valid myth then? Now remember, GOR is another planet, a "counter earth" on the opposite side of the sun. So all this totally ignores our probes, our mapping of the solar system, etc. Yet they are quite convinced that its perfectly ok to follow a code that enslaves, dominates, binds and exalts strength over any other virtue. GOR is one hundred percent fiction. Thousands of people however follow that artificial lifestyle. Which by the way in its extreme form supports kidnapping, rape, training by force to personal service, etc. At what point do we as a community or even as individual souls, support the harming of other beings? Including people? To make a fictional character part of the basis of your life, or worse, to attempt to force it onto others as a reality is not, in my mind, a good thing. Shrugs. Just my opinion of course. But I am a fantasy artist, I don't live in my paintings, they are just an interpretation of things I see around me in my own chosen way of expression. At no point would I ever expect anyone to believe any of it is real. In fact, I would be a bit horrified if they did.

2007-10-28 [Sunrose]: This marathon is supposed to be about creatures, to make the best informational page about them as can be found online. Whether they are truth, legend, myth, fabrications, etc: all approaches should be given attention.

I think we're losing sight of this intention when we start to combat each other what is truth and what is not: Even historical truth can be debated and no one here can force another to take on a belief/opinion/etc.
So let's not get lost in that issue and respect everyone for whatever they do or do not believe in :)

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Sounds good to me, as the entire reason I brought things up was the further definition of the purpose of these references as stated :)

2007-10-28 [Sunrose]: As for the question whether or not to place nymphs among the fea, wikipedia separates them. If I do a Google search for images they get very distinctive results.
So I think it's OK for us to separate them as well :)

2007-10-28 [windowframe]: I don't believe I said anything about re-writing the flow of human history for everyone else. And re-reading my comment, I'm not really sure where you got that impression from, and it certainly wasn't the impression I intended to give. Nor did I say that I incorporate the vampire concept into my life. Personally, I don't care about vampires, I'm just interested in what counts as myth or not, and why. So no, vampires aren't a particular "trigger" for me, and I don't really know where you got the idea that they were from. My previous comments stand for whatever example you give.

Old mythos incorporates into it's beliefs a geocentric model of the universe and many other "facts" which modern science disproves, if your point against gorean "myth" is that it goes against modern scientific evidence, then that is a point against all myth. Leaning on extremism is also an invalid form of argument. Everything in it's extreme will allow concepts that "normal" people find horrifying. As for making fictional characters part of your life - this is exactly how myth started out. At some point people actually believed the stories of Achilles.

But this discussion has gone off-topic and is just cluttering the page now. If you really want to continue this discussion, we should take it off this page. :)

2007-10-28 [Skydancer]: Nope, I got the clarification I wanted, thanks :) I think I will suggest though that sources be quoted and a bit of good information on just where the offered material comes from would be a great idea. For the sake of accuracy.

2007-10-28 [Sunrose]: Aye, so far I think sources have been quoted (as in linking to the original articles). Artsie probably knows more about this though :)

2007-10-29 [Sunrose]: So what do we need to discuss then? :P

2007-10-29 [Sunrose]: Hmm, I don't want to tread on your enthusiasm, but I don't agree with this idea.
The goal is to collect information, not to discuss the information. And we want/need people to collect it, not to discuss, fight or only talk about it: work needs to be done.
The marathon shouldn't be made complicated. If there is a question about a creature, it would be better asked at the creature page.
If there is something that needs to be discussed, it would only be the procedure and similar issues. For this we already have the crew-page...

2007-10-29 [Sunrose]: If you think discussions will get more people to create the work,  then you should pursue that :)
I'd just like to keep the rest of the pages more on topic, that's the main issue for me.. :)